Just saw this...they look nice...

http://blog.logitech.com/2009/06/02/e3-product-announcement-logitech-flight-system-g940/ (http://blog.logitech.com/2009/06/02/e3-product-announcement-logitech-flight-system-g940/)

Saw that too. Obviously Logitech knows how to make some top-quality input devices. In the past, they just haven't had the desire to implement their abilities into their joystick line. At a $300 price-point, I suspect these will be a different experience.

For me though, I'll part with my custom CH controllers when I die. Either way it's still good to see Logitech taking another stab at the flight sim market.

Saw those last night too. I wonder how the joystick action is.....

Kind of a shame that the force feedback is not implemented in all the controllers.  Perhaps that's why FF bears no sembelance to reality.

I'll try them out in the store when they show up....

Sure has possibilities - but like my buddy TB - I can't imagine exchanging anything I have for this...

S~

Gunny

Certainly has a number of interesting features and for $300 it probably is built tough. The grip on the stick looks plain. They didn't put much into the industrial design aesthetic or contours for the throttle grip.

Here's a marketing video for it that seems to describe them with little implied embellishment. Fairly straightforward and with the 3 trim axis rotaries and FFB, there will no doubt be a market for this setup.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cupuhwod554

Thanks for the video TB!  I registered at Logitech for news of when these would be available.

S~

Gunny

Here is a fairly in-depth review of the "beta" G940 over at the CH-Hangar forums of all places:

http://www.ch-hangar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6520

http://www.lockonfiles.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=447&mode=&order=0&thold=0 (http://www.lockonfiles.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=447&mode=&order=0&thold=0)

The Trim little rotation buttons look like a nightmare to me... hummm

I'm home tonight and they had em at Frys (where I can return it) so I just decided to grab one for testing if nothing else. My old CH rudder pedals are just about done for and I've rebuilt them enough to be tired of that procedure, I'm still using my X-45 for throttle control, and have recent'y been using the MSFFB2 and CH Fighterstick. It seemed like I might as well just get the G940 since if I like it I can sell my Fighterstick and MSFFB2, and replace my old CH pedals. . .at least that's how I was rationalizing the purchase. . .OK, so it wasn't even those things, it was the Fry's return policy.  As most of you know, I own or have used pretty much every mid-range to top end joystick, rudder pedals, and yokes. . .and few of them are without their issues which I complain about, but in my quest to find the best for the buck, I had to give this one a shot.

Before plugging anything in it was clear that the button placement on the stick itself is good and the stick seems like it will fit smaller hands well and still fit larger hands as well (edit: OK after an hour or so of flying with it I've found it got rather uncomfortable, as the handle is rather small around and coupled with the strong FFB motors my hands don't stay comfortable especially if you were to be running with forces at 150%! Perhaps some pipe insulation foam could be added to the right side of the handle to thicken it up a bit). The buttons, dual stage trigger and hats have a fairly high quality feel and the positioning of them is good on the stick, and adequate on the throttle (but it's no Cougar throttle, and the layout and features of the stick doesn't quite compare to a Cougar either). The stick and throttle have a rubberized hard plastic surface which provides a nice feel in your hands.

The rotaries on the throttle are not very well placed IMHO as you must use your ring or middle finger to actuate one of them and it takes two full swipes of my finger to go from stop to stop and the other requires a change in hand position to get my thumb to it and it's somewhat recessed so you have to hunt for it a bit. The rotaries do have a smooth feel and lack center detents and while others have complained about that, I actually think it is a good thing as it allows precise position at any point rather than having a detent that you have to move out of to get precision. In addition to the precision, this is also more realistic for trim wheels. If one of these was elevator trim though you would have to visually look to see it's neutral every time before takeoff rather than being able to center it by feel. . .of course real pilots have to do this, and given the precision, I'm happy they are this way.  

Now to the bad stuff. . .I may change my mind later, but I'm already pretty sure I'm going to return the G940 for the following reasons:

1) FFB implementation: Similar my Logitech G25, the FFB on the stick has a deadzone, on mine it is approximately 15-20 degrees in each direction from the center point. This means that smaller stick motions are met with almost no force feedback or damping. Because of this, precise control is quite difficult around the trimmed position and as you move the stick you will suddenly feel the FFB kick in. Additionally, when you move the stick further from center to the areas where FFB is strong the motion is somewhat notchy, as if you can feel the gears of the FFB system gnashing.  

I was just flying an Se5a through a city tracking low along a road with buildings whizzing by. . .if you were to watch footage of the flight you would see the airplane is hunting in pitch and roll, it's a bit jerky, and actually makes this type of flying a bit tough (I imagine shooting would be as well) and simply isn't as smooth as it would be if I was flying with the CH Fighterstick or the MSFFB2 (or even my old X-45). I'm yet to tweak the FFB settings at all - but my experience with the G25 tells me it will probably not be something I can fully eliminate and with the deadzone precision is impossible. For me, precision control is imperative for any joystick I'm going to keep and when the old second hand Fighterstick and MSFFB2 I have do a better job, well. . .you get the idea.

2) While they looked robust in the pics and videos the rudder pedals are even more chintzy than the CH pedals. . .if I put my feet in the heel cups just the weight of my legs on the pedals is enough to make them flex and wobble all over. Normally I use PC pedals as I use real airplane rudder pedals, with my heels on or just gliding across the floor, but with these pedals the mechanism binds and sticks if I just apply pressure to the lower portion of the pedals so I have to push more in the upper portion of the pedals for them to work smoothly.

Just like the CH pedals these are too narrow and too flat for my tastes, they actuate in such a way as to get even narrower when moved to the limits of travel too. The pedal surfaces look similar to transport category aircraft pedals (other than the heel cups and how close together they are), and they do have a softer center detent than the CH do which is nice, but given that they look like their made out of rubber when I set my feet on them, and that they bind with any downward force applied to the lower portions of the pedals I don't think they will stand up to very many hours of my use (aerobatics is gonna kill em!) even if they had the smoothness needed. While I never thought I'd say it, the CH actually offer much better control as they have slightly longer travel, don't bind (well mine started to after 8 years of hard use - but that was solved with a cleaning of the plastic rollers) and the linear travel the CH has is more natural and comfortable for me.

Compared to most real aircraft rudder pedals the proximity of the base of the pedals and pedals themselves, and the heel cups which these pedals use makes using the pedals as most pilots are used to  with their heels on floor is not comfortable as the heel cups press into the arch of your foot and the base of the pedals hit your heels. The CH have these same issues but it is easy to fix with a wedge fitted to each pedal to give them a  cup-less surface at a more vertical angle, so in itself this isn't a deal breaker for me.

WWI aircraft rudder bars have "pedals" that get closer to the center as they are deflected so I suppose you could count that point in favor the narrowing with deflection character of the G940 pedals, and if they were wider to start with I wouldn't mind it too much I suppose. The deal breaker for the pedals is the flimsy and flexy construction (and how narrow they are). So for me the CH will have to do.

In comparison to the MSFFB2, the MSFFB2 has far smoother action with much better centering (which actually feels somewhat realistic). A nod in favor of the G940 is that the FFB motors are a lot stronger than the MSFFB2 even at default settings and forces can be increased in the control panel to the point that you better have your monitor bolted down and a sturdy desk! If the deadzone and smoothness of the FFB were eliminated the stick and throttle might be worth the 300 bucks alone. Sadly the Rudder pedals use a proprietary connector (as does the throttle) so you can't sell them to someone who doesn't have the rest of the G940.

Given that you can't (currently?) buy just the stick and throttle, and as someone who won't be using the pedals no matter what this means I paid 317 bucks for just the stick and throttle. . .that would be worth it for a smooth and precise FFB action, but overall the flying experience is better on my CH pedals, X-45 throttle and MSFFB2. . .and that's certainly a cheaper setup too! I didn't want to have that opinion - and it might change if I discover a way to get the FFB dialed in, but that's my preliminary feeling on it.

****

To answer someone's question about the notchy feel of the MSFFB2: yes the MSFFB2 I have has a little bit of that but it's minimal enough to not impact precision or immersion. . .it's like sand in the mechanism - the G940 is like pebbles.  

I've only had the MSFFB2 for about a week now (from eBay, it's the model with the silver trigger) and the handle of that stick leaves a lot to be desired IMHO, as does the overall strength of the FFB  and the rather short range of motion of the MSFFB 2,  but the feel of the FFB itself is smooth and progressive from stop to stop and corner to corner, with a positive but deadzone free centering character which is much like a real aircraft, and that is rare in most PC joysticks in my experience (and I've got quite a collection).

As far as if I have a defective one. . .well, I have no idea. . .I've just got this one to look at. I wanted to see a display model but there was none so I just grabbed a box off the shelf. I do have a Logitech G25 wheel which uses the same motors, and it absolutely reminds me of the G940 with respect to the deadzone and the way the FFB ramps up with a slight lag once you hit the point where you're out of the deadzone. Same with the notchy feel. I did't put a protractor up to the stick to measure the deadzone, but I did measure the displacement at the center of the silver hat on the stick at just under an inch moving left to right across the deadzone.

In the driving sims the deadzone is not as big an issue to me (though it did bug me and I did spend hours tweaking RealFeel plugins and such to minimize it - which also can cause the FFB to get into an oscillation if the deadzone is too small), neither is the notchy feel - in fact that G25 is really pretty impressive for the price I paid (100 less than the G940) but in an airplane or a helicopter those things just won't cut it. . .at least for joystick snobs like I apparently am.

The rudder pedals are simply not well built - the design of the mechanism needs to be reworked IMHO and the plastics used are just too soft and sloppy.  I applaud Logitech for being the first to bring us an FFB HOTAS - and really don't want to "bash" a product that caters to serious simmers.  . .I'm just telling it like I see it.  I think the next version they make could  be absolutely awesome with only subtle changes to the stick FFB and if they use some more solid materials in the rudder pedals  (yes I'd like to be able to adjust the spacing of the pedals too - but that's probably just a fantasy).

Oh and I haven't tried it in BlackShark yet. I did try it in FSX and was dismayed to find the FFB forces are backwards! This seems to be an FSX issue though. The Logitech software really should include some sort of FFB reversal tick box in the profiler (if it does I've not found it yet).

****


It might very well be messed up. . .by all means do your own research and decision making here everyone! If I've got a dud of a stick I'd hate to see people not getting one based on my writing about a single faulty one.

That said, I know the deadzone is an issue with the Logitech G25 as well, and it does use the same FFB motors and there's no solution yet for that as far as I know so I'm not sure it's that simple, but if it is - well, maybe I need to replace this one and see. Work is in full swing again so I'll pick another one up in a week or so.

As far as reversing forces, I see a newer profiler version out - perhaps it will have the option, or perhaps I'm just not finding it, but the forces tabs do not have an option to reverse them in the profiler, I've looked in the cfg files for FSX, search FLightSim.com forums, and every place I can think of in the profiler and windows game controller menus. . if the option is in another location I've not found it. I've searched the help files with no returns either. I posted on the Logitech blog about FSX and they simply told me the forces work well in FSX so perhaps I need to try that with the month newer software than what came on the CD.


I have no software for my MSFFB2, it's just plug and play (I'd really like to boost the FFB strength but finding software that works with this stick has been tough) and the deadzone of the stick is near enough to zero to not be obvious to me.
********


************

Well - the new software didn't change the FFB deadzones in RoF or the problems with FSX. . .though it seems Microsoft is to blame for the FSX issues and perhaps with time the dev team at RoF can tweak things for that sim.

It seems like the only way to get FSX to be flyable is to enable the Centering Spring and then go into the FSX controls menu and un-tick "Control Surfaces" in the Forces tab. This does seem to eliminate aerodynamic control surface centering and force changes with speed and surface deflection.

*****

I gave that a try and observed no changes to the previous behaviors. Enabling "Control Surfaces" makes it nearly impossible to fly fixed wing aircraft. I could perhaps turn down the forces and crank up the centering spring and perhaps that could work. . .but at this point I think I'm going to go back to the wait and see camp and put that 325 bucks into a couple Pitts flights. . .talk about great force feedback!!

Hopefully I'll hear from other users that these issues don't happen on their sample, and can revisit the stick again later on down the road.



It's not the axis - the stick responses are exceptionally precise. . .it's the FFB deadzones that ruins the precision.

****



I agree.  

In general the detents ruin the precision of the wheels near the detent - especially in more realistic sims. Most real aircraft have a visual  indicator of the takeoff position of the trim, and they do NOT have detents. After visually aligning the trim with a marker point subsequent adjustments are all made based on need for proper performance/feel. The reason I never both using my X-45 rotaries for trim in most sims is the detents make realistic trimming impossible near the center point of the knob's rotation. Of course some people are using the rotary as a banded axis where true precise control is not a factor, but for any realistic sim, using a rotary like that of the X-45 pretty much ensures a range of trim positions, and therefore flying speed where the aircraft can not be precisely trimmed. . .so for example, if you're flying IFR procedures that's going to suck etc.

Not having a detent does mean that simmers would have to visually check trim wheel position before takeoff. . .which would be a realistic thing to have to do.

On the G940 I only had one wheel which required any effort to see, and that the one in front of the throttles. As far as I'm concerned the rotaries on the G940 were something they got right. Of course people will have different views on this so the ideal solution is to have it adjustable so that the detent can be used or disabled without major mods needing to be done. . .there's no reason we should have to go with only one vs the other.

Thanks very much for the feedback Mark - that's good news! I'm working with the devs on Rise of Flight for the most part right now, and there are changes coming regularly for FFB code and joystick scaling, trim etc. Hopefully someone at neoqb has a G940 and if these issues are in fact from that sim not having a G940 profile then they will probably get that sorted soon. One of the people I have been testing RoF with and flying with coms has a prototype/pre-release G940 and he has been happy with his.  I'm going to try this in a couple other sims shortly.

I realized that perhaps the FFB reversal in FSX might be a software thing. If my searches on the web are any indication MSFS has a long history of reversed FFB or perhaps as you said very laggy FFB and in fact there are payware programs to fix it for other sticks which have the same issues. Basically any input you make will be augmented by the FFB so flying without PIOs is dang near impossible. . .basic aircraft control is out of the question when you've got the forces of this thing cranked up.

I have not yet enabled the centering spring as I was under the impression it will force center the stick at the mechanical center point and not aerodynamic center as dictated in the sim so aircraft trimspeeds and handling will be impacted from this. I might be mistaken about that, I'll try it too.

I'm going to try the new software right now.

Thanks again Mark.

This should be sticked in all forum you can find ....

Thanks Eco...

I'll keep my U2Nxt Cougar - best system for this sim (after you take the boot off).....

No effects are better than a hack attempts to simulate physics.

S~

Gunny

http://www.simhq.com/_technology2/technology_155a.html (http://www.simhq.com/_technology2/technology_155a.html)

Those are very different evalutions.....  I guess I'd chalk the differences up to "eye...er.. feet and hands of the beholder".

One thing I forgot to ask you Eco, was there any difference in the 5.07 software build for this device?

S~

Gunny

Well, I know I'm not easy to please when it comes to flight controllers, and that everyone has a different opinion on them. . .most of that review mirrors my experience with the G940 other than the reviewer and I seeing things in different magnitudes he thinks "There is the tiniest bit of waggle in the stick while in the neutral/center zone" while I found the deadzone to be entirely too much to accept (the worst I've ever had, and I've owned A LOT of sticks). On the other hand, there is no way in the world anyone could seriously consider the G940 pedals I had as "stout". The PFC Cirrus pedals are stout, the Simpeds too. . .these were the most flimsy pedals I've ever used. Perhaps mine were defective with respect to the binding, but unless they were made of a different material than the set I had, well, I'm not buying it.

I should have made a video. Simply moving my toes around caused the pedals to flex laterally, and any asymmetrical pressure on the pedal faces as would happen when pressing on the bottom of the pedals only would cause the flexy mechanism to bind.

I dunno. . . I think there's an element of excitement at just having a new FFB HOTAS that makes people want to like it and to support it. . .much like many of us do when a new flight sim comes out. The thing is, it's easier to update software than redesign hardware. If I could have complained about these things during a beta test period that would have been my preference as I really do wish to support these sorts of products being released, but we also need good designs. Perhaps they will come out with a "Pro" model with a bigger grip, wider stance pedals made out of hard plastic or ideally metal, and get the deadzone and grit out of the FFB mechanism, and then sell it for 100 bucks more. . .that I would buy.



The software update gave me more game profiles in the list of ready made profiles (which I never use anyway) I didn't notice any other differences. I had tried it to see if perhaps the FSX forces would be proper, but no differences were noted. I really wonder how people are using this, or any FFB stick that doesn't allow for forces to be reverse in FSX. . .or if there is something odd about my FSX install.

In the end I was only trying that to be thorough - the FFB deadzone and my perhaps faulty rudder pedals had me making up my mind no matter if I could get proper response in FSX or not.

Now, back to "stout" rudder pedals:

I shot some photos of the rudder pedals in the PT-17 Stearman. . .now these are some nice (and stout) rudder pedals!

Perhaps I'm just spoiled:


(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y215/BrettVisionSLR/PT-17/46aef02c.jpg)

(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y215/BrettVisionSLR/PT-17/f33657b8.jpg)

(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y215/BrettVisionSLR/PT-17/3157d55f.jpg)

Since we are talking about stout controllers, check out the torque tube and pushrod assembly for the stick as seen here:

(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y215/BrettVisionSLR/PT-17/705e0edf.jpg)

Here's the Pitts S-2S Stick and pedals. The T shaped portion is the rudder pedal, the upper I shaped portion is the toe brakes. Also note how the area under the pedals is smooth and clear of obstructions - that's where your heel goes. . .not hanging on the pedals in cups. This is a very simple design - but one that works well, and one that really should be all that hard to fabricate:

(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y215/BrettVisionSLR/Pitts%20S-2S/Picture092.jpg)

Great pics!

Thanks.   You did a great job with that review which should be entilted "Real Acrobatic Pilot Review of Logitech G940).

S~

Gunny

Here's another one you might want to test Eco... http://www.flightstore.co.uk/prod/SAIX65F/DEPT-FSIM/Y3/ (http://www.flightstore.co.uk/prod/SAIX65F/DEPT-FSIM/Y3/)

If they have em somewhere I can demo them, or for sale at a place that I can return it you can count on it!

Saitek X65F  look way less platic then the G940./. i'll be very curious!

As you may know the Hall positions in my trusty Cougar have become noisy in certain spots - causing spiking in Y axis when X axis is iterated to the extreme left.  Rolling left hard - produced pitch deviations which make flying very very irriating and 'E' management impossible.   I know I can fix it - but it will take a good portion of my Sunday.

In a fit of madness I just drove down to Fry's with the thought of testing a G940 today, Eco's extremely detailed and relevant review notwithstanding.

I thought maybe he did get a bad one - or he's more sensitive that me - or even that since he's 6 foot or over than perhaps I'd be able to get by with the system since I'm not that tall.  I also thought that since Eco is a real acro pilot, that maybe he's more used to "smacking rudders" like a football player - and had a low tolerence.

So,  it's raining like all heck (which is a good thing after a two year drought) - but I drove down to Fry's anyway.  I was able to relocate the now tiny, Joystick and Wheel section (which used to be quite large) and low and behold - there's a G940!!!!

- With a large Returned sticker and retaped box!  It was marked down a whole $10.00 though (I hate Fry's)

So I opened up the box, still continuing with this madness to find a dirty and well used Joystick, Throttle and really dirty and scratched pedals.

The joystick fit my hand well, and the throttle did not seem too bad - an extra hat on the throttle was a nice upgrade from my Cougar, even though the G940 Joystick does not have as many hats as the Cougar.

But then, the madness of the rudder pedals overcame me as I cycled them with my hands.  The travel is so short I could not believe it.

"Micro rudders" was a term that immediately came to mind.

Again, questioning all I knew at this point - I put the rudders on the floor (in front of innocent shoppers mind you) - and tried them with my feet, imagining the rudder on my ROF or Il2 aircraft cycling with the input.

I was left with the simple impression that the rudder travel is so very short - that small rudder movements that I like to use when aiming and manuvering in formation for example - would be next to impossible.  So for $300 smackeroo's I get rudder pedals whose tiny travel is slightly better than a twisty stick?

As I believe TB commented on, and I know Eco did too - The overwhelming insanity is the propritary connectors between all components.

If the component connections were USB - I could put my Saiteks on the thing (those are my favorite pedals btw in action - however my Cougar takes gameport and I enjoy coordinated trim programmed from my cougar) - and probably be happy.

In the end - this product is a loser - big fat 0.  It's frustrating to see so many of the companies attempt to "fill a hole" in the flight sim community and do it so poorly.

Logitech usually makes good things - just not in this area.  You can tell that no dedicated Combat Flight simmer with real stick and rudder skills had anything to do with this product.

Control comes first - second and third.  Force feedback is an effect - it comes second.

In summary, this system sucks.  You will have less real control of your aircraft by using it.  It's Force Feedback merits/performance are irrelevant.

S~

Gunny

Where is my plastic bag? !!!! ...   wait!! .. heark!  bearkk! ()&%^(&*_+_)....9*(*&^765ih puhp9078786  !!  done !

Thank you Gunny great description ;) I wonder when are they going to do something that is serious..

Funny but I went to Fry's tonight too to buy a pair of CH or Saitek pedals and a CH Fighterstick. . .all they had was one very well used set of Saitek pedals for 120 bucks and a used X52 for 100, or a G940 - yep I bought another one just to test out the current beta while I'm out of town. . .and to verify if the first one I had was a dud.

I'll let you know if it's the same or different as my first one.

I have no speakers or TrackIR, but I'm gonna get some flying in tonight if I can.

Wao! 120 a used one.. Gulp!....

Well, that's cool that your retrying it - it would be good if you found a better example - maybe the come like Intel products with E0 - B0 whatever ...

I might have to get a new stick soon - depends on how long it takes Cubby to get back to me....

S~

Gunny

LMAO @ Gunny trying out the junk in the store...and @ Eco jizzing up the flight sim stuff out of town. Now that's dedication!

I just hope you get a chance to check out the Camel and provide your invaluable input ASAP.

And I hope, Gunny, that you get your Cougar back up to snuff in short order.

I'm so wishy-washy sometimes.....

There's a small part of me that hopes Eco has a different experience this time through.

The G940 is sort of like ROF -

- Complete system with FFB - and nice programmibility - potential: first system which combines it all - so far nuetered at birth by pedal travel, stupid connectors and centering play

- ROF - most advanced flight sim on earth - with flight models programmed by a jet jockey...

Why does everything have to look like health-care reform?

S~
Gunny

Don't hold your breath Gunny - this one  will go back too.

Other than news from Cubpilot - I was most looking forward to how the G940 worked out....

Back to the drawing boards...

Tell me again, did you like the Microsoft FFB you bought?  I could get one of those ...

Thanks


Gunny

OK, my previous comment wasn't fair. . .I'll try this new one one of these days and will report if the FFB is any better. I just got off work and the computer was otherwise occupied. It might be a few days before I can snag a moment on it.

Then again I'm probably building two more tomorrow. . .

THank God!  I heard from Cubbie :)

FIxed very very soon :)  :)  :)

I'm stickless no more !!!!!!

S~

Gunny

That's great news!!

Get the number to his "red" phone hotline for future emergencies.  :P