Once you get used to flying with superman it can be a hard thing to let go of. Taking this away is like stealing candy from a baby. It makes for a panic when you are engaged. It also adds an unsurpassed element of realism including sneak attacks and exploiting blindspots.

If you guys take the externals away, I WILL continue to whine, sorry , but ya can't have your cake and eat it too!!!Many times I find myself in a room with no wingman , and the F3 is the best way to check my 6, call me what you want and I'll still dogfight any of my TX brothers in "full real" and do well, so its not an issue of whether i can or cant fly "FR" , I've said it a hundred times, and this is just my lowly opinion, but you lock it all down and it becomes "un-fun" to me, S~ and addios muchachos.B~T-Dawg

Without a wingman you are at even odds with the majority of the other players on the servers. This does not limit you from using external views with the AI bombers. The maps will ALL include AI planes once the maps have been tested. I want to include the AI as soon as possible, but I have to add one thing at a time so I can isolate the variables. When you fly alone you will soon be able to use an AI aircraft (by next weekend if Rah can upload my maps at that time). This also adds another objective, the use of AI planes such as the FW189 for recon. Recon is a factor in the proverbial fog of war. Escorting an AI bomber with locked cockpit will actually make sense if the AI bomber has external views. I think the locked cockpit for planes with cockpits and AI planes with external views evens the odds for the AI planes. The AI planes do not have gunsights or instrumentation, having external views in a locked cockpit game gives AI planes an even tradeoff. I understand that some of you have claustrophobia. It is very difficult to fly without externals. Will you give it a try for a month?TX-KingsnakeWhite >+Commanding Officer

If we fly with externals off, we won't be able to fly the AI planes.I like the externals views on, only to compensate for the FLAT monitor we all have to stare into. Those of us that have flown airplanes in the real world know you can't have a 100% reaward view, some planes have more than others. Also, you don't fly staring into the instrument panel either, you are looking outside more than you are inside, only GLANCING at your instruments every once in a while. So where do you/we draw the line? It's hard to say, the German planes have a more restricted view when compared to the Russkie junk, it's Oleg that has screwed us....but I guess I just rambling now. I vote for Superman view, and external views on, whenever we play on the public server, when and if we fly a Historical Co-op then I want it as realistic as possible. No map view, NO PADLOCK, NOTHING....just us against the enemy using our superior skills as TX-pilots.....TX-BomblastRed2

This was also posted in the wrong forum....should have been TX only.I like externals on...,.Love flying AI bombers etc....  I can deal with a locked cockpit...leave externals on.Regards,TX-Rahman"BLUE 2"

Maybe I don't understand, but how can you have external views off for flyables and on for AI? Can you still fly in F2 mode in the AI with it off?edit: err...nevermind.TX-SeekerBlack 4

1) External views are available even in locked cockpit for AI planes. Use F2. 2) This forum is intended for public and squadron vote.3) Greater Green is another animal, there is no comparison. TX-KingsnakeWhite >+Commanding Officer

Well since I guess this is open discussion ill say I support the externals on category. Kingsnake you are right about many things such as surprise kills but you know what, those pretty much happen way too much more than I like with FR. It seems like its the only way you die and dogfights are less intense, quicker, and very repetative.Thats not the reason to hate such things however, but the reason externals for me IS better is well skins I love them! and i like pressing shift+f2 to see what other people are flying with!somtimes i get tired of flying, so i will spawn and watch other pilots teammates or enemies fight it out, somtimes it can be entertaining enough by itself. Dont forget battle damage! I like seeing what kind of damage my plane has, how many holes are in the wing etc whats making my plane act so funky, Its always some weird combination of damage it doesnt get old to me. Youd have no idea what was going on if you were flying FR and take a couple hits and youd like to see the extent of your damage.Sure people use external views to lockon to enemy planes but its better than using my number keys to painstakenly look around inside my cockpit and rotating my plane flying in random directions looking for an enemy fighter, or even just a friendly plane.Oh ! and dont forget takeoffs and landings this is especially important i beleive on a server with lots of people like OC3, because as planes spawn you cant see directly infront of you unless you have tri landing gear, and its very useful to me to manuever onto the runway and around friendly planes. There is plenty more "friendly"accidents on the runway in cockpit only mode, imagine 16 people on a single airstrip all colliding then respawning then blowing up with all this junk it would be frusterating as hell.Its just more fun, flying FR makes me claustraphobic in some aspects. I can do it, but its very restricting and tiring.

In the discussion of server settings the debate went like this... We are tired of chasing Yaks in black out circles in external views with wonderwoman view. All the attention to flight modeling and detail in the cockpits are ignored. You might as well fly CFS3 because you aren't experiencing anything this game has to offer in terms of realism.  The rebuttal to this was, if we make the settings difficult, we will have an empty server. So... we take a squadron and public vote to find out. That is why this thread is not in the private members area. We want to know, in true democratic fashion, what our public wants from us. There has been a lot of comparison making in this and other threads to the Greater Green. We like the GR. We have flown with them and believe they make a contribution to the betterment of the game. I applaud the fact that they strive for realism. Unfortunately, their server settings are inadvertently biased for those that have hardware that didn't come with the game CD. The people flying that server with track IR and great graphics cards are the ones cleaning house. It is our policy at TX to provide a reasonable level or realism without a bias towards external hardware devices.   TX-KingsnakeWhite >+Commanding Officer

Wow, 7-7 in tally, purty good post's !!S~T-Dawg

The reason I like external is to get screen shots. I never fly "in action" with externals. The screen shots also prove to the Mrs. that I'm not looking at porn all night. LOL , jkAlso externals are good for spotting the proper ground targetsIMHOYours, CYXI

I vote Externals on. I Like to take a break every few minutes, and watch people fly. Its very enjoying, and sometimes you can LEARN stuff. But i NEVER fly with it, i mean, its insane to me. How can you gun or manuver like that?

Well...im rather new to you guys, so my input really probably counts for squat, but i'll humour myself, and post anyways.I'm not at that level yet where I can fly full real and have even a chance in hell of coming up on top against most of you, and even with externals on, i'm still at a disadvantage.  Externals are fun, geting to watch your bomber etc fly past on those long flights to the target, and I really only use the lovely f3 key anyways when in a df.  I do realize that full real only improves your game, but until I get all the goddies most of you have to aid my efforts, i'm stuck needing externals.It's your server, and i'll do what it takes to continue flying in it, and if that means no externals, well....i'll just have to stare a little more intensly at my screen and squeeze that stick a little harder when trying to out jinx you all (like that will happen)Well.....my 2 canadian cents (thats about .5 cents U.S btw)

We seem to have a big problem here. I was wrong about the externals option for AI planes. Your point of view is stuck at your spawn spot if you fly an AI plane when externals are off. Keep in mind that if externals are off, AI planes are off as well. It wasn't always like this. FB has this 'flaw' if you will. The vote to have no externals means no AI planes. That is not cool for a lot of AI bomber pilots.TX-KingsnakeWhite >+Commanding Officer

Well, since externals are off, looks like no more BF110's or Fw189's for me =(

I voted, and find it interesting that most who posted here said they wanted externals on, and yet there are more votes for externals off. . .interesting.I for one am going to be sticking to FR for a while, I have been wonderwoman's co-pilot for long enough as some sort of favor to everyone else, and yet there is no reciprocation of that favor to me/us. It seems we are waiting for something as a squad. . . what is that that we are waiting for? I think command is also waiting. . .waiting for a little "sure boss, we will stand behind you and give it a whirl and then decide"I don't think we need to set the OC3 to a very different setting (though I wouldn't object, and we WILL have a nice turnout no matter the settings)but I do think it would be cool for us to fly on a secondary server such as Cuda's or Ersky's using a full real but perhaps with friendly icons and padlock.I trust you all know my feelings on this one, though I have cast my vote.I hope you are all in good spirits and that life is treating you well.I am in Malibu, Kayaking, mountain biking, and rock climbing and such. . . I can't complain.S!TX-EcoDragonBlack 1TX Squadron XO

I personally prefer Full-Real settings, cockpit only, no padlock. I don't use Track-IR or any of that nonsense, just my 10 position HOTAS hat switch.I believe that flying with wonderwoman and external views is a crutch, and I was a better pilot when I was not using them (maybe I'm biased because its easier to sneak up on yaks).If it were possible to have external views enabled for an "observer/neutral" team that spawned you into the game without an aircraft, in which you could take a break from playing, or watch other people play, without having to spawn an aircraft, it would be a good thing. Last time I flew an AI bomber I thought they could be flown without externals enabled(you have to press F-2 twice)."I vote Externals on. I Like to take a break every few minutes, and watch people fly. Its very enjoying, and sometimes you can LEARN stuff."I think this neutral/external view/observer/ghosting team feature would be  great, I am going to suggest it to Oleg.I like the way you are allowing the public to have a say in your server settings, I will fly their more often even if cockpit is off, I wont fly with it off.I eat, sleep, and deam of killing yaks.Then again, when do I sleep, I'm always killing them!

..OK gents here is my take on this...I voted for externals off..then went in and forgot..after I am shot down or crash...I usually like to follow the action from the external point of view. It also makes for some good screen shots. BUT...if this is what the majority want I'll go with it...but I would prefer externals OFF....or padlock enabled if possible...S~!Rocky...TX-CUDA on UBITX-CUDA on HyperLobby

There is apparant tilt towards external views off from those in control ofthe settings LOL.For me, if I wanted to fly for real I'd get my pilots license. I find that the external views make up for the lack of any REAl feedback when in a plane. My 19 in monitor sitting in my office doesn't provide the kind of environmental feedback needed to make flight decisions as simple as what my attack angle is or even if I'm flying upside down. if I was in a REAL cockpit I could flash my eyes down to guages..no such speedy option with externals off. And my centering 'x' can disappear from my screen while I'm looking around and I waste valuable time trying to find it, sometimes crashing into the ground.Long comment longer. I hate no external views off but I appear to be in a slim minoriity. If we have to fly with externals off can we switch back and forth from time to time?  At least then my options for play on the game servers are something other than 'REAL' and 'NEWBIE'

I dont get the switch personally, if id wanted to fly full real theres plenty of servers on hyper lobby for it or even the greater green server. Oc3 was the best as it was I figure it would be perfect if we could fly the allied vs luftwaffe with ai planes too and externals then it would be great greatness. I havnt been flying much since the change but ah well if it lasts too long ill play single player or somthing cause this is very frusterating for me i remember when greater green made the same change months ago It lost lots of flyers.flying full real makes your squadron seem more serious but i think the general flyers suffer. I find it odd most people that voted for externals on posted so, and those that voted them off didnt. Im a serious pilot but i get lazy and pissed off easily when pressing the numberpad key to look around, or spending all that time to take off find an enemy and get shot down without knowing till its too late.      Dont you guys feel the alternate cockpit views are hte bigger concern over no externals, i mean its not like we can aim with external views very well at all. but hte alternate cockpit view is 10x more revealing it tells you where enemies are, direction and perfect view with no blocking, and it does especially increase your accuracy. I have no problem killing hte alt cockpits but externals is a must for me.

After flying on the OC3 Campaign maps again tonight I have to say again that I prefer to have externals ON. It really is not that great of an advantage while dogfighting BUT...it sure makes for a better experience if and when you are shot down. IF I get knocked out of the air I like to take a second and look at the other pilots on both sides and see what the tactical situation is...or heck, just sit back for a minute and watch the show! I would like to see them rotated on say every other map if not turned on all together...S~!Rocky...TX-CUDA on UBITX-CUDA on HyperLobby

I would like to have external views on, I'm sure I voted, but being from Fla. I probably made a mistake. When and if someone makes a 360degree monitor I'll vote for no externals, until then lets make do with what we have a "FLAT" screen. And yes, we need the A.I. planes to make it more realistic, that would mean a better selection of planes for both sides. And. could we have friendly icons on only?? TX-BomblastRed2

My .02 cents, for what its worth.We started this squad with relatively easy settings to get the hang of the game. Since then we have often tried to push the harder settings to increase our skills, the sense of realism and to take advantage of our outstanding teamwork and excellent comms. But the fact appears to be (despite the voting) that the community as a whole does not enjoy locked cockpits. While many depend on superman view, many others can live without it but it seems to be a concensus among most that no externals is too restrictive. While you will always have the mad yak driving fools who will use anything and everything to get over on the rest of us, you will find them in every game including this one...but never as the majority. We've dealt with the occasional abuser for a long time now. While not an optimal situation it is nevertheless an endurable one, at least for me. Why diminish the fun for the majority because of a few abusers who rarely hang around long anway?We were the first group to run a dedicated 24x7 server and the first to add AI planes as a standard feature. We were the first to create the combined arms mission style which was entirely due to the AI planes being available. We've built a strong following precisely because of our settings and the AI planes being onhand. Many squads shoot for full real because they feel that makes them better players. In many instances it does. But the more difficult the settings, the fewer the players as we have all seen in the past 18 months of our operations.I've felt that we've never tried to claim we were a full real squad nor have we ever claimed that we are the in the game of being the best squad. We've always tried and succeeded at running the best server with the best blend of settings for everyone. Someone will always bitch they do not like this or that but history speaks for itself. With our server being nearly 100% full damn near 24 hours a day, I'd say that we found the best overall settings that the community likes. We don't run the server for the elite squads, nor do we run the server so that we have the odds stacked in our favor. We run it for the community and have established ourselves as a consistent and welcoming place to play. After so long with so much success, I would recommend to get back to our roots and enable externals and bring back the AI planes. From what I have seen of the server scripting, we have a powerful tool in our hands that is working extremely well. Combine that scripting with our classic settings and I feel that not only will we continue to have the best server in town, we will have a server that is untouchable by anyone period.Remember we were the first to do many things that have affected the entire community...our popularity is based on our innovation and friendly atmosphere, not our difficulty settings. We do not now and have never flown a newbie server and I seriously doubt the community perceives our squad as a bunch of softies that can't handle the hard settings. We've always flown for fun, not for bragging rights on something as inherently unrealistic as a flat monitor running a PC game. Give the people what they want I say, it's been our way of doing business for a long time now. TX-ZenBlack 6 Reserve

Well said Zen. As i said before, I hate using external views when i'm actually flying. But it's fun to look around and see how much dammage you did after you got shot down, or to watch the fight after you die. Gives us not-so-hardcore flyers a little break. I can understand your veiws, because Superman veiw IS annoying, but alot of people like externals, because they dont give THAT much advantage, and are alot of fun.

I flew this afternoon for a bit and was pleased to see that there were two AI planes to choose from  and externals were enabled. Made it much nicer when I could get out of that black hole I end up in everytime I get killed!..S~!Rocky...TX-CUDA on UBITX-CUDA on HyperLobby

My preference is to fly with externals off.  I’ll agree to all of the stuff said about how actual pilots have a better field of view to what can be represented in the game.  A real pilot can also turn their head and find a bandit with more ease than a player using a hat, mouse or keypad.  That it’s just cool to look at skins or the action form someone else’s plane.  But to say that externals on compensates for this is understatement, it puts the pursue-e on almost a level field, able to match the bandits movements at almost the same instant, not to mention the blackout possibilities.The fact is that every aircraft has a blind spot that is a disadvantage to any pilot that finds himself sixed up.  The aggressor should be in control. The compensation needed to even the playing field is the closed cockpit.  Now all your fighter tactics can come to play, situational awareness, defensive maneuvers, and as always nothing beats comms with a good wingman.  Last weekend for the first time I used a scissors to escape and turn the tables on my attacker.  You can’t really do that with externals on and with the gun cam view going.  I was very thrilled to pull that off after all but giving up on that maneuver.  It’s all just my opinion.  Not really trying change anyone else’s mind that that prefers the externals on, just putting is a plug for those votes for externals off.  I still like to fly them both but for now I crave the FR settings…icons on of course.TX-ChukarBlue 1

Not really on the same topic but somewhat related i guess. I must rave about the plane settings and the maps. Its been alot of fun flying some planes I don't typically use and the matchups between axis and allies is quite fun.Cudos to the map builders.

I'd prefer externals on. I like flying the 110's, Ju88's and Pe8. Sometimes I like to just sit back and watch what everybody else is doing. Sort of a cheap mans movie if you know what i mean, then sometimes type a comment on what just happened. Ya'll know me I like to make little remarks once in awhile. Just my view on the subject.P47Jug

Salute! great serverNow that we have a useable mapgrid reference system ,. Its easier to get our flights together , Personally ,sometimes I like to find a wingman or 3 and do Hi-low bouncing of enemies with externals off ,Sometime I like to gawk around at the awesome views and watch action going on across he map ...Herrs the thing...Cant we have BOTH?? Seems the server will have to be reset every certain number of hours anyway ,I voted for externals off because I like to do long drawn-out HE-111 attacks from 4k >:^) and I hate getting busted because some smelly allied has been ctrl-f-2ing me since I took off :)Respectfully Goon: vicious terrestrial biped,hammering away ineffectively at poor defenseless keyboard

What would be really cool would be a map that could auto change actual host settings. . .but oh well.Hosting at HL makes remote server settigns changes a little be easier than it had been (we had to work in a little window about .75 inch by 1 inch once the game menu had loaded. . no kidding) with HL it can be changed from outside the game, and your right that it needs a reload every once in a while. . .we shall see.Thanks for stopping by Goon. . . err. . slackerS!TX-EcoDragonBlack 1TX Squadron XO

TX-RaptorGuys I tend to remain silent about alot of things, but when it comes to external views/Icons I cannot remain silent anymore.I dont know where the majority of you stand on externals and enemy Iconsand padlock, but I just cannot stand to fly with those settings.1: depletes all senses of realism2: removes all tactical ability of IL2's and Stuka's3: totally removes the element of suprise (the bounce) when someone can scan around in external views.The way the Icons are set right now isn't too bad really.Is there any chance of at least having a couple full real days per week?No enemy Icons would be fantastic because you still have the ability to see friendlies, yet retain the ability to be sneaky EVEN with externals enabled IMHO it would be a nice compromise just leaving enemy Icons off and externals on.Also leaving externals off might reduced the screenshot cheat too I dunnowhatever the outcome may be Im getting seriously burned on not being able to use any real world tactical maneuvers on the enemy. Maybe theres a way to tweak the icon range SOMETHING to enable us to use some real tacticsPlease don't take this the wrong way I know some of you like externalsthis is only my opinionTX-RaptorWhite 4

TX-Zen"I don't see a problem with a certain amount of time per week of full real minus externals, but keep in mind our server is oriented around AI planes which require externals on. I think a solid discussion on this is appropriate and welcome everyone to chime in, but admit in advance that on this issue I am unlikely to be dissuaded. I am deeply convinced our style is the most effect way to run a game server and intend to continue and in some ways intensify our efforts. Having said that, I see no reason to be fixed on only one course of action. I encourage diversity and will absolutely vary the settings to keep things moving. It's a matter of proportion primarily. Thanks for bring this up however, it is a good suggestion."TX-ZenBlack 6TX-KingsnakeWhite >+

This is verbose, but please read it all because it will clue you in to why we do what we do....I put this to public vote because we need a place for the public to voice opinion because taking whining complaints in a chatline during combat is worthless. Settings can not be discussed in global terms. There are different types of games each requiring a settings specific venue.  Online we choose from cooperative, dogfight, and combined arms. Combined arms being a scripted server with target objectives. Combined arms maps are suited to large front line maps with flight times of 5 to 10 minutes to target. Engagement tends to be at higher altitude and higher energy, resulting in a more realistic staging point for a dogfight. Sacrificing reality for playability, externals enable us to see our targets on the ground, use AI planes, and relieve the boredom from a 5 minute flight. Padlock allows us to find ground targets to complete the mission objectives, assists in the formation with friendly planes, and prevents external hardware advantages. Icon ranges are set for each map depending on weather and visibility conditions. Almost every map in this setting is set for color, name, and ID at under 2k. The 2k range shouldn't offend anyone because you can see the plane type and insignia at that range. Pure dogfights on very small maps are well suited to locked cockpit and no icons. In this arena the map sizes are smaller, almost all the dogfights are all under 2,000 meters, sacrificing the reality of a staging point for a dogfight for the realism of visibility constraints. No Icons is an appropriate setting for this environment, this should be done with a range setting of .01 instead of turning icons off in the settings screen. In the pure dogfight target ID is part of the game. You can still padlock a friendly in this setting so padlock is not making the determination between friendly and enemy. It wouldn't be fair if there were a setting to disable track IR. Padlock is an optional feature when left on in the setting menu, if you don't like it don't use it.    Cooperative maps are subject to yet another settings environment, I won't go into detail about that. When making comments about settings it needs to be in the context of the map type. Keep in mind that I spent hours scripting and refining the 20 different maps in the rotation. Part of testing these maps was in the appropriate settings. Don't make a summary dismissal of the map settings in a carefully arranged historically accurate mission. If you are making  a comment about an all planes all year furball map you need to specify that. Take into account that I posted this thread and read everyone's opinions. There is no map that can make everyone happy. That is why we fly the 2 types of maps, the all year furrball, and the combined arms. If we want to introduce the locked cockpit, no icons maps inplace of the all year furrball I can accommodate this in the next month of rotations. This will mean making some people mad and some happy.   TX-KingsnakeWhite >+