Zen the M-60??? In Iraq?

[TX-FlightRisk]

I just found out from watching the history channel that the M-60 was still a commissioned tank in 1991 when the Abrams was the edge. Is this true? Were they retro fitted with all the technology?? Please fill me in. The M-60 was thought to have been replaced by then.....?

S~
TX-FlightRisk
Black 3

[TX-Zen]

USMC fielded the M60A3 with Blazer reactive armor retrofitted, they didn't convert to the M1A1 until after the war. Sad but true unfortunately. With the M68 105mm rifled main gun, the M60 had the ability to destroy the Iraqi T72's and older T62 and T55 from any reasonable range (re: 3000m -) and with the TTS thermal sight actually had a better night fighting capability than the M1A1 with the TIS thermal sight. The M60 was retrofitted with the 3rd generation TTS while the M1 had the 2nd generation TIS sight. The M60A3 had very limited fire on the move capabilities compared to the M1A1 but considering the Iraq's were relatively static this was not that big a deal. The main worry was if the M60 took a direct hit from the Rapira-3 125mm smoothbore on the T72 it would be toast, but because the fire control system on the T72 was dramatically inferior to the M60, the crew quality was poor and the morale was low the odds were still way in favor of the highly trained USMC crews. Add to that 4 round per minute ROF compared to the M60's 15-20 RPM and the deal was sealed. Not the greatest idea to field the older M60 but the USMC didn't have the budget to upgrade til after the war. All things considered the M60 was capable of defeating the T72 at 2 or 3 to 1 odds and performed very well during the war.  TX-ZenBlack 6

[TX-Copper]

Holy....Zen seems to know his stuff!!My only addition to this thread is to say i've been in a M60...got to sight in on trucks, use the thermal sight etc....all at the courtesy of the nat.gd in Duluth Minn (im Canadian...it was a thrill, believe me!!)

[TX-Chukar]

I heard one of the reasons was that becasue it was smaller and lighter it could be deployed to the battlefield quicker.  There are more was to transport a M-60 than an M1.  I think they can even drop it out the back of a C-130 or may I have that mixed up with a light tank the paratroopers are useing.

[TX-FlightRisk]

Zen you must really miss being in a Tank.... Incredible. Thanks!!!!S~TX-FlightRisk Black 3

[TX-Zen]

Chukar,The tank you are thinking of is most likely the M551 Sheridan which is airdroppable but is so light that its technically a recon or scout tank since it has virtually no armor. Tougher than a troop carrier but no match for even the oldest tank in direct combat, its more of an infantry support vehicle. The M60 weighs in around 52 tons and has almost the same logistics problems in world wide deployments as the M1 series. Copper, I spent 10 years as a tank commander in the Army and as FR mentioned, yes I miss the hell out of it. Everyday (Can't wait for a good tank sim to roll out on the market...you think I'm happy now in FB, wait til a game like that comes out)TX-ZenBlack 6

[TX-Chukar]

Zen - you are right, it was the Sheridan.   What can I say, tanks all look alike to me.

[TX-FlightRisk]

TX-Zen said "(Can't wait for a good tank sim to roll out on the market...you think I'm happy now in FB, wait til a game like that comes out)"OMG Zen could you imagine a Tank game that you can coop in and you be the commander...... Man it would rock....Everyday =)S~TX-FlightRisk Black 3

[TX-Zen]

lol, I could imagine a tank game like that, I'd go nuts over it. Just keep in mind that as bad as it seems in FB, I had NO friends in the Army, it was all business ;)Seriously, if they had something that was realistic I'd play it. The problem with most tank games is the hitpoint system of damage which is not realistic at all...tanks don't get hit and slowly fall apart until they can't fight, either the projectile defeats the armor and causes (usually) catastrophic damage or the projectile bounces off the armor and does very minimal damage. WW2Online for example, the bigger the tank the more hits it could take before blowing up...lame. A Sherman 75mm firing at a Kingtiger from the front doesn't have to hit him 10 times or 20 times to kill him...the Sherman can't kill him period because the frontal armor is too thick for the Sherman's main gun to penetrate...he could hit the tiger a hundred times and do no damage to it. This is why tanks get bigger all the time, more armor, bigger gun, etc etc. So find me a game where the ballistics are closer to reality and I'll be interested. TX-ZenBlack 6

[TX-FlightRisk]

Zen... have you ever played Steel Beasts. And they have a demo....heres the sell...Steel Beasts is more than just another modern tank simulation. This design effort goes further than any before to accurately model real world conditions and tactics but in a way to not overwhelm the novice, would be, tanker with a zillion key combinations and an overwhelming interface. Beyond just realism and game play bonuses there are tons of added improvements in this tank sim which include: A tank simulation in which real-world tank tactics apply, and you have the means to use them. Features the Leopard 2A4, the most popular European battle tank, and the M1A1. Integrated mission and map editors, which allow you to create custom missions with complete enemy plans. Accurately models M1 and Leopard gunnery and the interplay that takes place between the crew members of a tank. You better dump the lead after an engagement on the M1, or you'll find your next shot may be way off -- just like the real thing! A terrain rendering engine that enables players to read the lay of the land. Superior AI that frees the player from micromanaging his units. Units are smart enough to automatically avoid minefields, move away from artillery strikes (when allowed to do so), go hull down, and even change hull-down positions when under attack. Sophisticated algorithms that enable real-world tactics to apply. Factors such as the speed of the tank, the terrain behind and in front of the tank, the degree to which the tank is hidden behind a hill, etc, all determine whether one particular tank is detected by an enemy tank. Skyline your tank and you'll find that the enemies will detect you much easier than if you had trees behind you. Powerful 2D map with line-of-sight display that allows meaningful pre-battle planning. A tank commander's position that is actually useful. Friendly forces that are not under the player's control can also be part of the battle. Sophisticated damage modeling, including loss of communications. Infantry are modeled as well.S~TX-FlightRisk Black 3

[TX-Zen]

Steel beasts (How ironic lol)I know the guy who helped design the game. He was in my tank company and I've helped them beta test it. I had a copy laying around somewhere but can't recall where it rolled off to. The game is good, the best on the market true but it's missing something for me. Williams and I had a few long discussions about the sensations that its missing and he thought they might rework things a bit for version 2. I like it but it's a real pain to command a tank by yourself due to the way the controls are setup...a real tank has crew members who do different things and it's hard to combine that all into a single interface that a player would use. Some of the other (minor) annoyances are the rather older terrain modelling which makes it very difficult to use the dirt to your advantage, which is a key US tactic...you never drive in the bald ass open unless there is no choice, you are always looking for hasty battle positions to fire from behind to minimize your own exposure to enemy fire. As I said, I like it but it proved to have a few things that reduced the playability for me. I'm a hard critic though having spent as much time in the hotseat as I have on the real ones. I'm sure a tank enthusiast would really enjoy the game.TX-ZenBlack 6

[TX-Rahman]

If I'm not mistaken...  I think a guy in Zen's platoon actually was part for the development team for this game.  I think he did the sound samples for the engines and tank sounds...EDIT:  We posted at the same time....I was right after all!! Regards,TX-Rahman"BLUE 2"

[TX-Zen]

Lol, right on Rah :)There were 4 guys who designed the game and about a hundred soldiers who gave practical advice. I think the credits mention our former 3rd Platoon Sgt, Scott Vallie. Great tanker and a monster tactician...one of the best in the world in my mind.TX-ZenBlack 6

[TX-FlightRisk]

Just curious though... Did you know it has cooperative missions with one tank."Any mission can also be played over a network (e.g.,  the Internet) with any combination of cooperative and competitive style of play, including multiple players in a single tank. Powerful and easy-to-use scenario and map editors allow players to create virtually any mission they can dream up."Also they are on the supposed to be releasing a Steel Beasts 2. either now or very soon..... But just an FYI .....That you probably already know. S~TX-FlightRisk Black 3

[TX-Zen]

Yes, the cooperative in the tank involves two players...TC and Gunner. I don't recall if the TC still drives the tank or is the driver a 3rd player as well. And yes, I do know they are working on SB2. Wait til you fight the AI...you will think Russian tanks are unbeatable lol(The truth is that the AI is simply really good at warfighting and simulates soviet MRR tactics extremely well. As we all know, tactics win battles, not tanks)TX-ZenBlack 6