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Author Topic: Ground Attack Theory for Il2  (Read 15017 times)
TX-Gunslinger
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« on: October 03, 2007, 03:01:55 am »

Most of my time in Il2 has been as an Air-to-Air oriented pilot.  During my time in TUSA, particularly as an operational and tactical level planner,
my appreciation and interest in ground attack or "Strike" increased significantly.  Maps without ground-orientated strike objectives become stale and repetitive,
losing their military focus.

In the past year, I have spent some time on servers improving my ground attack skills, particularly Jabo/Fighter-Bomber close-air
battlefield support oriented missions.

As a military professional and avid student of military history and operations, I've come to notice discontinuities in the construction
of "historical maps" and the expectations of some members of the community in the construction and layout of ground attack
objectives.

Over the last several years their has been increased interest in "historically exact" map construction and "reinactment" style events.
Many of these efforts have fallen short of their intended purpose and resulted in varying degrees of frustration with Il2 flyers.  It is my
intent here to explore the limits of the Il2 simulation in recreating believable and accurate ground battles which are the basis for the aircraft  interactions
that we experience, both in ground attack and air-to-air.

Many map builders, will go to great lengths to replicate their understanding of historical battles and engagments, with respect to
aircraft types and models, bases and even loadouts (which can be controlled to a degree by Il2-Server Commander).  Details as
seemingly small as which grade aviation gas was deployed to a theatre (controlling availablity of aircraft models such as P-38L Late/
P-47D late and 25lb Spitfire IX) are commonly addressed and inspected by both map designers and users.

On the other hand, the location, selection and disposition of ground objects is very rarely inspected or compared to historical reality.
This is the purpose of this thread.

Have you ever noticed that on many maps that you can achieve very high scores by completing certain ground-attack objectives,
particularly when compared to an Air-to-Air sortie?

Take a flight on a typical dogfight server in which you are focused on air-to-air objectives.  If you are skilled and very successfull, you
 might return to base with a "bag" of three fighters.  This will yield a score of 300.  Now, take the same server and fly a successful
ground attack mission and your score may be over 1000.  Case in point:


That score is from just one ground attack sortie on a server that I love to fly on.  Now let's
examine the target placement in that mission:


We can see a column of trucks, half-tracks and other vehicles proceeding in close-spacing
down a paved road with Sherman tanks deployed at a spacing of 5 to 10 meters apart,
to either side of the road.

More detail:


We notice from this view that some of the half-tracks are towing artillary.  We can also see
in the distance, the attack objective for the Red (U.S.) forces - the small town up ahead
(in this case north east).


Along another road (unpaved) just to the east of the first U.S. column, and due south
of the objective, is a similar formation of vehicles, bearing down on the town, to the
north of these units.


In the town, examining the defending German forces, we see a truck, some artillary,
mobile AA and assault guns looking in the direction of the second U.S. column in the
distance.  The 2nd U.S. column is visible along the dirt road to the south of the town,
about 2,200 meters from the head of the American Column


A little further back in the town are a variety of "soft" German units, trucks,
ambulances, SdKfz 6/10 and towed artillary, all very closely spaced,
at 5 to perhaps 10 meters.

In attacking enemy vehicles at such close spacings, multiple-bomb drops - executed
rapidly down the road, in the direction the column is traveling will produce
results like this FW-190F8 attack (same as A5/A6 U17):


Then guns and cannons can clean up the rest.
Producing:


Subsequent attacks on formation like these should be accomplished by choosing
targets aligned perpendicular to the road as depicited in this sequence:




So now that we've illustrated how to achieve 700, 800, 1000+ point per ground attack
sortie with respect to current generation online maps - let's now ask the question.

Is this realistic?  Is this the type of target that would typically be encountered in WWII?  
How were armor, transport and artillary deployed by different nations during WWII?

We will examine these issues in future posts.

S~

Gunny


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« Last Edit: October 03, 2007, 12:41:58 pm by TX-Gunslinger » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: October 03, 2007, 03:00:53 pm »

That is a VERY good question Gunny. . .one I've often quietly asked while collecting the points on a Jabo run.S!TX-EcoDragonBlack 1TX-Squadron XO
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« Reply #2 on: October 03, 2007, 06:48:23 pm »

I am looking for the keys to the Jabo. Nice thread Gunny.
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« Reply #3 on: October 04, 2007, 01:49:44 am »

Hey Eco glad your interested (even though this will eventually lessen our point totals).  Since your wondering also, I'll continue our analytical approach by presenting some documentation.  First, we can examine someWermacht film frames from Russia during actual deployment conditions.  I specify "deployment" conditions, versus parades,staged propaganda clips and tanks rolling through towns, in which units are located very close together, to "fill out the frame"Note the distance between the tank in the near field and the next closest tank.  Does that appear to be 5 meters?  Or 10?Or perhaps 40 to 50 meters?Now let's look at units moving down a road, which include Panzers and Trucks  Do these folks appear to be driving in the types of formations you see in online maps?  Close and even spaced?Note the one artificiality in the staff vehicle parked alongside for the "photo-op".Now let's examine this offical U.S. Army publication:Which provides:Note the corrected error in Compay versus Battalion Legends at the bottom of each figure.  Examination of each figure willreveal the printing mistake (Labels were swapped).Note that proper spacing of units is 50meters within platoons.  Note also there are 5 tanks for each Platoon.  This is the Germanstandard.  2 Squads of 2 tanks each (wow, does'nt that sound familiar) plus 1 Commander for each Platoon.Notice also that at no time are more than three tanks "aligned" for PTAB or Ampule attack.  These formations are designed to be"Air Resistant".Finally, U.S. practice parallels German doctrine - almost to the letter.  This is spelled out in the document many, many times.  I'll go into more on U.S./German common practices later.Enough for tonight - much more tommorow.S~GunnyBlack 2 TX Flight Leader
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« Reply #4 on: October 04, 2007, 02:04:20 am »

quote:
Originally posted by TX-Kingsnake:I am looking for the keys to the Jabo. Nice thread Gunny.
Hi King! S~I'm editing this alot, sorry I missed your post - I was in the middle of edit.I have many more figures, images and examples - getting this started has been the most work.  I'm having a little trouble formatting the posts for best reading - I'm using a 27" Dell at 1920 X 1200 - any suggestions on presentation for easier viewing would be most welcome.  I don't have a sense anymore for what "normal viewers" would see.Also, King, if you have any good supporting graphics, still pictures or movies which help illustrate any of these points, please feel free to help.ThanksGunnyBlack 2 TX Flight Leader
« Last Edit: October 04, 2007, 02:08:35 am by TX-Gunslinger » Logged

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« Reply #5 on: October 04, 2007, 02:42:23 am »

So, let's stop a minute and examine how to apply what we know thus far:1) German tank squad contains two units (like a Rotte)2) German tank platoon contains two squads plus a leader (similar to Schwarm)3) Units attempt to maintain 50 meters (or yards at this scale) spacing4) Two platoons form the front of the reverse wedge - spacing between platoonsis 50 meters5) 2nd wave is 100 meters behind containing Heavy Tank platoon.  Until mid-43,the Heavy Platoon was made up of Pzkw IV - as Pzkw VI (Tigers) were introduced,they were incorporated here.  In very high end units - Pzkw V (Panthers) wouldhave replaced Pzkw III/IV in the two front platoons, as available.6) 3rd wave is approx 250 meters behind the 2nd wave with Company Commandelement of 4 Panzers between the 2nd and 3rd waves.7) The formation is reversed for "wedge"8) Variations occur due to terrain, unit strength and tactical situation, verysimilar to Luftwaffe employment doctrine.Now let's put a little of this in practice.  Here is an FMB example of an old competitionmission which some folks complained about at the time it was introduced.  It is moredifficult to succesfully attack than 90% of what I see in most online maps. 5 units are lined up, one behind the other.  This is sure death if you facing Il2's and other enemy aircraft equipped withsubmunitions like PTAB or Ampules.  Unit spacing is about 20 meters.  Again, this is considered an unusally difficult formationof tanks to attack by many Il2 ground attack specialists.Now a correctly spaced Panzer (or U.S.) platoon in the left position of the first wave of a Blunt Wedge formation:So, if a perfectly laid Il2-3M Ptab attack is executed - only 3 tanks will go down.  At 40 points per Pzkw III, that's 120 point in pass one, before switching to cannon.Just in case you may be wondering how to measure 50 meters diagonally, here's a tip:.More tommorow.S~GunnyBlack 2 TX Flight Leader
« Last Edit: October 04, 2007, 02:43:41 am by TX-Gunslinger » Logged

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« Reply #6 on: October 04, 2007, 03:21:35 pm »

If I was a tank driver, I know what I'd be doing!This is gonna piss off some IL-2 pilots out there though. . .but I for one always thought it a bit silly looking at loads of vehicles packed in like they are stuck in traffic on the 405.S!TX-EcoDragonBlack 1TX-Squadron XO
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« Reply #7 on: October 04, 2007, 07:32:25 pm »

I posted some movies a while ago for this sort of stuff.http://ftp://69.56.198.2/TXMovie/wwii%20film/panzermovie2.mpgftp://69.56.198.2/TXMovie/wwii%20film/Wehrmacht%20-%20eine%20Panzer%ftp://69.56.198.2/TXMovie/wwii%20film/ww2%20german%20antitank%20tactics.mpgWith the level of detail you are going for I think a coop would make the best show for your efforts. Zen spoke extensively on the ground movement and positioning of ground targets.. . Mostly on how stupid the AI tank drivers are. This is footage from a reenactment. http://ftp://69.56.198.2/TXMovie/wwii%20film/ww2%20tanks%20and%20aircraft%20battle.mpgI went to a reenactment once. I rode in a Kubelwagon and a motorcycle sidecar.  Got to do some marching, shooting, and got bullet hozed by an Allied submachine gun by surprise. Taking orders in German is confusing for me. Everyone abouts face one way and I turned the other way. I came back with a regulation haircut and a better understanding of a historical perspective on ground movement. The whole thing was amazing and so much fun. A family car drove by and we were a Kubelwagon full of armed Wehrmacht and Infantry. Ja efery body wafe to zem.  Hallo vie are zie Germans.  S!
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« Reply #8 on: October 04, 2007, 11:59:36 pm »

Hey King - Thanks for the links :)I took a little time off the post to work on the "R&D" Protoype map.  Roger for the better environment and dimension of movement with respect to the COOP, and I might go there, if the online maps I'm putting together, don't work out.  However, I'm optimistic - as my real objectives are:1) To improve the quality of online ground attack by basing missions on the historical disposition of targets including the proper spatial relationships between:a. Armorb. Anti-tankc. mechanized AA/infantryd. resupply, support and other infrastructure targetse. airbases and operational level objectivesf. the amount of player aircraft typically experienced on a map2) By improving the quality of these ground related items, cause the supporting air components to enjoy a more realistic and immersive experience.3) Improve ground attack skills within the community. 4) Improve Mission Planning, Operational Level Coordination and Course of Action (COA) skills within the community.  This is one of the greatest deficiencies in this community and is an underpinning of much of the "gnashing of teeth" and "rending of garments" by folks who believe they have an understanding of the operational art of warfighting.5) Develop a better appreciation for the capabilities and limitation of the sim.6) Complete all these objectives in a fun and engaging manner to provide stimulating entertainment to virtual pilots at all levels of experience.7) If this is not possible - then enitrely quit the "historical" facade that exists in the minds of many throughout the community.Cool Complete this research prior to SOW.What I'm finding are many, many great tools that Oleg and company have provided - that are not even used in most scenarios.  A great example is AT guns, machine guns, static defenses and trenches.  I was testing last night the score obtained from destroying various ground objects.  I will post later a detailed list, but to summarize - an MG42 (25) destroyed, is worth more points than some German trucks such as the Opel Blitz (25).  Anti-tank guns are worth as much as artillery(30).  These types of objects also are very low cost and do fire occasionally, enhancing the pilots notion that "there's a war going on here".In defensive positions, these items are concentrated enought to obtain an reasonable score from accurate bomb drops.  They are more difficult to kill by strafing (as you'd expect). Consider this - warfare is a managed risk endeavor.  While I've shown one example of the preferred manner in which vehicles move down a road, there are many variations of spacing.  Sometimes, a force is "caught with their pants down" as a result of:- Poor operational level, or tactical level planning.  WW2 and modern warfare are ripe with examples of forces who were not aware of road conditions, and experienced heavy "traffic jams" at crossroads.- Poor intelligence information, which resulted in "crisis management" when the enemy attacked from a direction which was not anticipated.- Poor risk assessment, resulting in attempting to force too many supplies or equipment across rivers or other obstacles resulting in "traffic jams" at chokepoints.These are appropriate situations for masses of trucks and other vehicles which can be taken out "en-masse".  These situations are few and far between.  They are not normal, and therefore in good simulation terms do not occur in every place on every map.  Additionally, where these jams of defenseless vehicles occur, so does the concentration of AA.Anyway, I've much more to show - we have only discussed armor so far.  There is much more.Then we can proceed to our first "prototype" mission - in the next thread.Thanks again for the links and feedback. S~GunnyBlack 2 TX Flight Leader
« Last Edit: October 05, 2007, 12:23:57 am by TX-Gunslinger » Logged

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« Reply #9 on: October 06, 2007, 07:57:03 pm »

quote:
Originally posted by TX-Kingsnake:http://ftp://69.56.198.2/TXMovie/wwii%20film/Wehrmacht%20-%20eine%20Panzer%
King, the films were great - really liked the Panzerfaust/infantary training film.  The link above is not complet and does not work, could you fix it for me?ThanksS~GunnyBlack 2 TX Flight Leader
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« Reply #10 on: October 14, 2007, 01:47:07 pm »

Ok, on with the show.Here is an example of what proper tank spacing (50 meters or so) and organization grouping in attack, looks like in Il2 in the game.  Soviet tank companies are organized by 3 - 3 tanks per squad - 3 squads plus 1 command tank per company.  3 companies per battalion - typically 2 medium and 1 heavy. In 1943 this means 2 T-34 companies and 1 KV-1 company.  In 1945 this means 2 T-34/85 companies and 1 IS-2 company.On the battlefield it appears this way:Ok so much with tanks - now on to infantry.S~GunnyBlack 2 TX Flight Leader
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« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2007, 02:00:36 pm »

Baseline for German Infantry positions - from previously posted reference:As implemented within IL2:One example of multiple types of company positions - good score is achievable with good bomb drops - or great shooting after bombs are bombs are expended.Also, the graphic limitations of Il2 have been considered.  Each type of target is housed in the same "object" type - so that ground attack pilots can benefit from their knowlege of setup.When this all comes together - we know have a larger appropriate scale that Strike pilots have to work within.  Things make sense - if you understand correct military relationships of ground objects that real pilots and commanders had to work within during historical battles.If you open your mind, this adds another - interesting dimension to the battlefield and could impact other related areas - such as air cover/escort.S~GunnyBlack 2 TX Flight Leader
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« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2007, 02:07:16 pm »

Current state of mission prototype - test on you computer if you'd like.  Simply place mission in /missions/net folder - start mulplayer server and join.Mission filehttps://webspace.utexas.edu/joem/Gunslingers%20Missions/Mission-Building/Kiev-Lyutesh.misProperties filehttps://webspace.utexas.edu/joem/Gunslingers%20Missions/Mission-Building/Kiev-Lyutesh.propertiesSuggest first attempt be made from the red airspawn against prepared German infantry positions in Pe-2 with full load of bombs or A-20.  Follow up after some of the positions have been reduced with Il2-3M against German tanks.Still more work to do - but I'm out of time at the moment.  Fastov Rail junction targets are too detailed and some of the ammunition train cars need to be reduced.  It's too easy.S~Black 2 TX Flight Leader
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« Reply #13 on: October 14, 2007, 05:33:24 pm »

LOL.. Great JobOk Military ride in battle formation when ready to attack or in the front line  tanks or any vehicule ride on the road when the road are there it save lots of fixing time and parts changing mostly in tanks and heavy trucks etc.Many move from army goes on road or even Freeway i know i use to. Wink-GOZR
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« Reply #14 on: October 14, 2007, 06:14:20 pm »

Hey Gozr :)I know you are former Army Officer and this is old hat to you.Thanks again for the kind words...S~GunnyBlack 2 TX Flight Leader
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